Overcome PCOS Fertility Challenges [Podcast with Mary Wong]

Today we’ll be talking about pathways to pregnancy with bestselling author, international speaker, acupuncturist, and high performance coach Mary Wong. She’s the founder of Alive Holistic Health, and is one of North America’s leading wellness clinics. Or it is one of the leading wellness clinics.

Mary has helped over 10,000 women in counting overcome infertility, PCOS, and other health challenges. Often when everything else has failed, Mary’s life mission is to bridge the gap to care, helping humans thrive in mind, body, and soul.

Mary co-hosts My Fertology podcast, helping to boost women from fertility and beyond. And is a health expert on CityLine Canada’s longest running daytime TV show, specifically targeted to women.

And today we’re going to be talking about her book Pathways to Pregnancy. I just read it the last night, and it is an amazing book on fertility. It’s really unlike any others that I have read, and I’m just so thrilled to be chatting with her about it today. So welcome Mary to the PCOS Diva podcast.

Thank you so much for having me here, Amy. It’s an honor and a thrill. And I have to say that I’ve been listening to your podcast and they’ve been so stellar. And I love your mission of being able to educate and providing women with informed choice for their lives, which is exactly what I’m about.

Well, I don’t know why it took me so long to have you on the podcast, because you’ve been on my radar for quite some time now. I follow you on social media, and you are definitely one of the brightest voices helping and advocating for women with PCOS. So I’m really excited for our conversation today.

Wow, thank you.

So reading your book, you open with a really powerful story about how you ended up helping women in this way, in your clinic. So I’d love for you to kind of share a bit about what led you to become a Chinese medicine practitioner, and one that specializes in PCOS and fertility.

So I’ll have to say it’s actually a two-part story. Because first, the first and foremost was all along in my life, I’d always revered Mother Teresa. So I’ve wanted to help people since I was a little girl. And I had always thought that it was going to be in western medicine. I was going to go to med school, because every Asian out there coming from an immigrant family, you have three choices. You become a lawyer or a doctor, or an accountant.

So I started off actually going into accounting in grade 11 or something, and then I went, “Ew yuck. I don’t think I like it.” And then in university, my intention was I was taking pre-med courses. But in second year of university, what you call college, my grandmother who was 86 at the time, was sick and she was dying in the hospital. The doctors literally said, “She has two weeks to live.”

So we thought, “Okay, we’ll just bring her home because we don’t want her to be in the hospital. We want to be with her.” So we brought her home. And then it was my brother, my older brother. He said, “Well we’re Chinese. Maybe we should try Chinese medicine.”

So at the time, there was this thing called the Yellow Pages I think, or similar vintage. So it’s this book that you look for, because there was no Google. It’s just this book of directory. And we found an acupuncturist locally. So I was given the task. I would drive her downtown to this Chinatown herbal store, and I’d walk her into the back room where this ancient doctor was. He was old himself. But I was fascinated.

And more than fascinated, within a couple of months, I’m going to say three months. She not only didn’t die, but she actually ended up living another eight years. So in that moment I’m like, “Holy cow, why the heck did she get pronounced as good as dead, when this helped to save her life?” And so in that moment I thought, “Oh my goodness, I’m going to now pivot.” So I got a little disenchanted to say the least.

And so instead of going to med school, I finished my college degree. And then I went straight into acupuncture and Chinese medicine. So there’s been no turning back. I’ve been doing it for 29 years, and I started out as a generalist. But over time and over the years as things go and perhaps a community of your listeners are in the same boat, typically in our North American society or actually internationally in a developed country, we go to school for longer. We think about marriage a little later in life. And oftentimes, having kids is not even in the radar for a very long time.

So for me in my thirties, I’m like, “Okay, you know what? It’s not really happening, I’m just going to make sure my fertility is good.” And I’ve been treating lots of people for fertility. So I became more and more interested.

And I guess I got a name for it as well. So more and more people seek me out for fertility, PCOS, endometriosis. A lot of gynecological female issues. And then, I think what catapulted me to become a way better human being was that I ended up struggling with fertility, which I had no clue that was going to happen. Because who knew? And Amy, you said that the doctor diagnosed you. Was that the case, or did you figure that out on your own through tracking first?

Yeah. So I was doing the Creighton Model of fertility tracking when I was trying to get pregnant with my second child, and was having trouble. And it was actually the nurse practitioner that was kind of instructing me on the method, saw this chart with all of these… If anybody does Creighton model, they’ll know the yellow baby stickers. There was lots of yellow baby stickers, which shows that I have all of this non-ovulatory mucus. And she suggested that I might have PCOS.

Then that led me down to the root of getting a diagnosis. But yeah, really understanding my cycle was a powerful tool for me. And that’s one of the reasons that I advocate for that, for women with PCOS. You have to know your cycle.

Absolutely. So it’s interesting that you say that because in Chinese medicine, that’s the premise of our work where we look at signs and symptoms in the body that basically gives us a clue as to what’s going on internally. And the menstrual cycle is certainly one aspect we look at for sure, hands down.

And I was never diagnosed with PCOS, but I suspect that it was there for me. But my challenge for fertility was actually that I had blocked fallopian tubes, when I was trying to conceive. I met my husband at 38, and then we tried to start conceiving right away because it’s like, “It’s now or never.” So before we even got married, we started trying. And I wasn’t thinking that I would ever have any issues because both my grandmothers naturally conceived at 46. So in my mind I’m like, “I have lots of time.”

But now in retrospect it’s like I wonder if they actually had PCOS. Because we know PCOS women actually normalize their hormones a bit better as they get mature. And their reproductive lifespan is longer than other women, right?

Yes. And I’m sure you see that in your practice. I see that with a lot of women on my private community page and coaching who’ve struggled for years, but are able to get pregnant later in life.

Yes.

Myself included.

Right. How old were you when you had your kids?

Yeah. So I had my last child, my daughter when I was 37, after doctors had told me for years I would never get pregnant again without fertility treatment. And I would never get pregnant because I had PCOS. And we’re going to talk about that. You have some excellent advice for women when dealing with doctors. But yeah, so that was my story later in life as well.

Right. Yeah. So anyway, I didn’t expect it. There was truly shame around it. And I was hiding the fact because it’s like oh my gosh, here I am treating women and couples for fertility, and I have blocked fallopian tubes that’s irreversible. It’s like, “What the heck? This shouldn’t be happening to me.” And so it’s like, do I hide this? But then that’s so inauthentic.

So one of the times the patients came in and she was so distraught and so sad. And I thought, “You know what? I think she just needs a little helping hand just knowing that she’s not alone.” Because as you may know, women feel so alone in this journey. Even when they go to a fertility clinic and they see 100 women in the waiting room, you still feel alone. Because there’s not so much conversation. So I love that you’re doing this podcast to really tell women with PCOS that you know what, you have this and you’re not alone. There’s a way out.

And so for me, when I finally surrendered to… my gosh, because it’s not about me. If I can help make this person feel a little less lonely and a little bit more hopeful, maybe it’s time for me to come out. And so I did. And in the background fear of, “Oh my gosh, she’s going to judge me, think that I’m a horrible practitioner.” What I received was completely the opposite because she says, “Thank you. Thank you. Now I trust you even that much more because I know you’re rooting for me, and that you fully understand me.”

And that was the beginnings of learning about other women’s stories. People, when they’re lying down for acupuncture, a lot comes out of their mouth. So I just felt the privilege myself, even when I was going through it. Because I witnessed them in their depths of their despair. And most of the time, they end up having their families one way, shape, or form.

And so really, my patients were my own inspiration. And through that I’m like, “Holy cow, I need to write a book and tell these people’s stories so that women can feel empowered, and have hope, and feel not alone, and not have the shame. Let’s dispel the shame. Let’s open up the conversation.” And that’s what I did.

So I documented everything while I was going through my fertility challenge, which it took us six years to have our daughter in front of my face, where I had her in my arms. But it wasn’t actually until she was a toddler that I literally was writing my book in the middle of the night every single night for nine months. So that was my second baby.

Well, you have a beautiful second baby. I’m sure your first one’s beautiful too. But this book is beautiful. I love how you have shared the stories of your patients in such a real way. And I think what really stood out for me is that so many fertility books, they deal with the specific aspects of fertility treatments. Certainly there’s a conversation of diet, exercise, lifestyle, supplements. But there’s not enough focus on the mind/body/spirit connection. And you kind of mentioned that in our intro together.

And I’m going to just read a quote from your book, and then you can kind of explain in more detail what you mean by it. “One of the best things you can do for yourself when trying to get pregnant is to focus on yourself, to relax and be in the moment rather than focusing your energy on trying to put a baby in your belly.”

I love that you picked that out, because that definitely stands out for me every single day as I deal with patients. Because this is what happens. Women get so caught up in the, “I need to achieve pregnancy. I need to be able to do this.” That they really forget about themselves, and how to fully honor themselves.

Because here’s the thing. Yes, of course. Let’s do all the things that are supportive for your pregnancy. Things that we know that can help. Like as you just mentioned, the diet, the lifestyle, the exercise, all of that is really important. It is.

But what gets lost and certainly gets lost when you read those how-to books, it’s like, “Well how are you being, as you’re doing it?” You can eat 100% good for fertility and do all the right things. But if your frame of mind is like, “Oh my gosh, this sucks.” And every time I get my period, it just feels like, “Why am I doing all this if I’m not even achieving pregnancy?” So there’s this reevaluation every month.

And so the request and the recommendation is like, “Well no. When you do this, don’t do it for the baby that is not in front of you, that you cannot control the outcome.” When you do this on yourself and nourish yourself in a way that it is fully for you, and let that baby be that spontaneous outcome, that there’s possibility for it to come out. And it actually increases receptivity when we hold on a little less.

I was just going to say, you have this gentle approach to fertility. And I think that this statement that you say in the book kind of sums it up. “We cannot force a pregnancy. We can only encourage it.” For me, thinking about it that way is kind of a paradigm shift. So I love that.

I did want to talk to you about labels, I guess. And mindset. And I know I’ve shared this on the podcast. But when I was 17 years old, I was a freshman and I wrote about it in my book too. Freshman in college. I was having troubles with my cycles. Of course, I wasn’t diagnosed with PCOS. That didn’t come until 31.

But I remember sitting in this cold exam room waiting for the doctor to come in. And the first thing she said to me was, “Well, we’re going to have to jump through hoops one day to get you pregnant.”

Of course, pregnancy was the last thing on my mind at 17 as a college freshman. But that stuck with me. But because my mother also had fertility issues and she did have myself and my sister, I think I felt a little bit more at ease with that statement, that that wasn’t the sentence for me. But I see so many women, and I’m sure you do too, that what their doctor may have told them in an initial consultation has now haunted them, and defined their fertility.

And I know in your book you say to frame it as not being infertile, but rather having a challenge with your fertility, which I think is a great way to reframe it. But maybe you could talk to us. You’ve sort of labeled discussions with your doctor as you’re going to have to help me with this, the nocebo effect?

Nocebo, yes. The nocebo effect.

Explain what that is and how we can overcome the nocebo effect.

Yeah, this is such an important concept, and one that is not new. You’re familiar with the placebo effect. Which means that when it comes to research, they’ll look at… Let’s say you’re using Tylenol, right? They’re going to look at the effectiveness of Tylenol or any kind of painkiller or anti-inflammatory. And you compare the group that is using the actual drug, versus the control group that’s taking a sugar pill. And the placebo effect occurs when the person believes that whatever they’re taking is going to be helpful. So that’s called the placebo effect.

But oppositely and one that is not discussed, but which happens every single day in our lives… And it’s not just from doctors. It could even be from teachers or society culturally. And so the nocebo effect is, let’s say you have PCOS, and the doctor says exactly what they said to you. And thankfully, you actually have evidence to prove otherwise. So for you, it didn’t stick. But it kind of stuck because you remembered exactly what the doctor said. You’re 50. You remembered it was 17 years old. That’s a long time.

So imagine the woman that does not have evidence, and then the doctor says something and labels. “You are infertile. You have premature ovarian failure. You have PCOS. Oh gosh, you’re not ovulating. And boy, I think the only way you can get around it is IVF.” It’s like wow, that’s heavy. And how do you then internalize it in your body? And in Chinese medicine, we say that are internal affects, the seven effects of emotions, which includes the good stuff, like the joy that we all always want to feel all the time. But we don’t want to feel the grief, the fear, the worry, the anger, and frustration, and the shock. All those kinds of things are uncomfortable emotions. But when a doctor says these things to you, that’s exactly what gets raised.

And so we are quiet about it, and we internalize this. And from internalizing this emotional artifact, we say in Chinese medicine that that is actually even cause for disease. So you may already have something, but it may be actually potentiates it even more, right? So we need to unwind that conversation so that, or unravel it to say, “You know what? When I do this test and it shows that I have PCOS, it is in this moment.” I get that. But guess what? There are lots of things that I can do and let’s look for other things. Let’s look for stories of hope that will show that, “Oh gosh, this person will still conceive naturally in the end.” So look for other evidence despite what the doctors tell you, which you did.

Yes, exactly. And I think that’s why you write your book and I started PCOS Divas to give women hope that a PCOS diagnosis does not mean that you are going to live a less than life, that you can thrive with PCOS, thrive with being fertility challenged. I know you have a whole section on surthrival suggestions.

And maybe you could share a couple of those with us. For those listening who are in the fertility journey right now, what can you work on, as you mentioned in that first quote in your book that we started this discussion with, to work and focus on yourself? Yeah, give us some suggestions.

Well, I think the very first thing is again, going back to this label. And then saying, is this really true? And can things be shifted? Because what you get at blood work and ultrasound, those things can change in time. And then look for things that will work. And that’s exactly what you do, Amy. You tell women, “Okay, let’s look deeply into how you’re eating, how you’re moving, how you’re thinking, how you’re sleeping.” Even relationships, all of those make a difference in our wellbeing. So let’s look at that.

And then again, in terms of emotions, it’s like let’s actually embrace the emotions that we have, which may be uncomfortable. But let’s not suppress it. Is there a nice way to get it out of our system? So journaling is a great way. Communicating with friends, family, lover, a paid therapist. Or even your acupuncturist. A coach. So all that is so important.

But again, reframing the… gosh, I have PCOS. And let’s look at some of the positivity out of that. Because truly, there’s nothing wrong with you. And why I say that is women with PCOS, it’s kind of like you’re just in the wrong time. If you were in this days when there is famine or less food in the world, then you are the thriving woman. And in fact, PCOS women are great leaders. So look for all those amazing things, all that you are. And let’s embrace that, right? Because as you say, it doesn’t have to be bad. It isn’t bad. We’re just touching it. We’re labeling it as bad.

Yeah. And I have a great podcast about that topic with Dr. Nancy Dunn. So if you’re interested in learning more about the wonderful aspects of having PCOS, I think we called it the Wealth of PCOS, check out that podcast episode.

Awesome. I’ll have to check that one out. I’ve checked a lot out, but I haven’t checked that one out. And then, so you know what, since we’re on the topic of PCOS I, my invitation to you is this, for all that is who are listening, people call themselves warriors as they go through fertility. And well, yes, it can be a bit of a fight. But I would actually suggest that fighting means that there’s a lot of conscious energy. And it requires a lot of energy that can be draining you. And the truth is, a woman with PCOS, there’s a lot of energy, right? There could be higher testosterone. There’s a lot of that male yang energy. And what we need to actually tap into is that feminine yin energy.

Yes.

And so instead of looking at yourself as a warrior, or instead of thinking that this is a mountain to climb which is really arduous and effortful, let’s not even envision a mountain. Let’s envision this valley. You are the valley, and you can be receptive, by allowing the rain to come in to increase fluid and that fertile energy to conceive life.

Because as you mentioned earlier, you know what? Just because you have PCOS, it doesn’t actually equate to infertility anyway. We know that. We see it.

I am so happy that you said that, about fighting, and the warrior. The language, it’s all ripe with masculine energy. And with PCOS, you’re right. We have to embrace that feminine side. And I think I consciously named my blog back in 2009 PCOS Diva. Because I felt like you’re always going to have PCOS. You can’t constantly be fighting yourself, that you need to embrace the PCOS Diva.

So I love that you see that relationship as well, and the balancing out that yang with things that are more yin. I’m wondering, what are some yin ways to balance out the PCOS yang energy?

And I already said this earlier, but it never hurts to repeat it. Because again, women come in and they’ll ask me, “What more can I do?” When they’re trying to conceive, when they’re going through their lives. And it’s like, “Well actually, I feel like you’re doing a lot. I think in fact, you might be doing everything.” So maybe the question to ask is, what can you stop doing?

Yes. Okay.

And how can you do things a little differently in what you’re doing to have you stress less? Because then you’re looking at doing it perfectly. And so it’s maybe not about being perfect and doing perfection. Because in truth, it’s not real. It’s unachievable, because let’s embrace that we are perfectly imperfect. And can we do that? Or will you honor that and allow yourself to embrace that you are imperfect, and you can do things imperfectly?

So many of us, I call myself a recovering perfectionist. I think that’s a real trait with women with PCOS is that perfectionism. And in your book, you write a lot about stress. And stress really wreaks havoc on PCOS. You have a lot of great tips on managing stress. But one that I think a lot of people don’t realize… Well, I think they realize how much their jobs are a factor of stress in their lives. But I don’t know if they make that connection with fertility and their jobs. And I loved this line. I told you before we got on the podcast that it’s just so tweetable. But align your life in order to create life. And I think that also means aligning your life’s work, what you’re doing in the moment, during that fertility process.

Yes. And it is so important. And in fact, one of the chapters in my book… So it’s 15 Stories of Hope, just so everyone knows what we’re talking about. And one of them is my own personal story. And then the others, it’s very wide and very [inaudible 00:28:47] intentionally, I didn’t only pick PCOS. So there’s lots of different kinds of issues. But one of them also includes talking about in at work.

So here’s the thing. We don’t have easily compartmentalized lives. It’s like when you work and you’re trying to conceive, we can pretend that they’re separate. But really, they kind of breathe into each other. So how do we honor ourselves while we’re trying to conceive, while we’re working?

And this was written before COVID. But one of the things I said is, “Can you consider working partly remotely?” Because a lot of times if you’re going to the fertility clinic, it is really difficult to navigate trying to hold down a job and go to a fertility clinic. And then what up?

And then in terms of your life, it can be derailed when you’re so focused on work and you’re still trying to prove yourself. So much so, that you’re having quick foods for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And what does that amount to? Oftentimes quick sugars, right? Those very easy things to access from bakeries or something. So it’s not the most healthy.

So it’s when you’re working, because most of us do work and have to work, how can we eat as healthy as possible, but not have to be perfect? If you can live at home and can cook all day long, sure. But I think most of us in the working world, it’s a challenge. So if that’s the case, what kind of takeout food can be in line with your PCOS?

So for those that are listening that aren’t really familiar with Chinese medicine, how does a Chinese medicine practitioner compliment your allopathic physician, like reproductive endocrinologists’ work? What would the benefits be, and what would you be doing?

That’s a super great question. Because in research more and more too, there’s lots of women that are going through IVF. And in New York, I saw one paper and they said over 90% of women that do fertility work are also seeing a TCM person. Which I thought wow, that’s amazing. That’s crazy. So the point is it can work and it does. And here’s the reason.

The fertility clinic basically are able to give you numbers. And they treat via drugs and surgical procedures. And their aim is to really increase the number of eggs. And what we are doing is we’re wanting to help the quality of the eggs, and the quality of the uterine lining, and the quality of the reproductive hormones. And this is how I’ll explain it.

When you do acupuncture, when you do herbal medicine, the aim is… And we see it through research. It increases blood flow to your reproductive organs. It decreases the cortisol levels. It increases the release of endorphins, the feel good natural hormones. Which then will actually help your whole cascade of hormones, reproductive hormones. From the hypothalamus, to the pituitary, to the ovaries.

And so by increasing the blood volume to the reproductive organs, what you’re doing is you’re increasing cellular energy. So the ATP that drives the cellular division. It helps to increase nutrients. It helps to increase oxygenation. It helps to take away debris that needs to be taken away. It helps with any kind of adhesions, to move that out.

And so I compare it to when you plant a seed in the soil. You don’t just plant a seed in the soil. You actually have to prepare it. You till it, you weed it, you water it. And you have to continue doing so after the seed is planted.

So same with this kind of work, and which also includes the whole lifestyle piece. And by the way, Chinese medicine in of itself includes lifestyle, dietary therapies, tai chi, chi gong, as well as the acupuncture piece and the herbal medicine piece. But really it’s your whole life.

So we need to look at your life even preconception. So if you’re in a place of, “I have PCOS. And maybe one day or maybe not, I’ll have a kid.” While really going back to let’s treat yourself first. Let’s be in alignment, in more balance. So that when the time comes or if you decide to, your body is that much more closer to the ability to conceive and make life.

And I think also that emotional aspect of your being, how important that is. And you mentioned that in your book. It’s often the greatest contributor to imbalances in the body. And I think that that besides the storytelling and the stories that you tell about the seven other women and yourself, that really getting and giving great advice around that emotional aspect I think is a huge positive in your book. And I highly recommend it. I know you could pick it up on Amazon.

Yeah. So any outfitter. And I actually recorded it for Audible too, so it’s in my voice. So if you’re not a reader and you need to walk around and consume books, which is what I’m really good at these days, you can get it on Audible. But yes, the print book. You can go through Amazon or what’s your… Oh my gosh, what’s your big… Barnes and Noble, that kind of stuff.

Yeah. And it’s called Pathways to Pregnancy by Mary Wong. And where can we learn more about your work?

So you can find me on Instagram at Meet Mary Wong, and just follow me there. But if you want to go to my website, you can go to meetmarywong.com. As well my clinic itself is aliveholistichealthclinic.ca.

And do you take telemedicine calls, or are you pretty much… Because you’re in Canada.

That’s right. So I am in Canada. And I do take some telemedicine calls as well. Then of course, people that are local just come in and sees our team that yeah, I’m super excited. And you can always hear our podcast team, My Fertology podcast. And so yeah, I’d love to hear from you. You can DM me on Instagram too, if you have any questions. And I’m just here for you all.

And you’re outside of Toronto?

I’m in Toronto.

In Toronto, okay.

Oh yeah, we’re right in the heart of Toronto.

So you’re there with Dr. Fiona McCulloch too?

Yes. She’s a friend of mine. She’s a good friend of mine. In fact, I just texted her yesterday.

I haven’t seen her in a while because I haven’t been to any conferences because of COVID, so I miss seeing her. But she’s a great PCOS naturopath.

Yes, she is. She’s like my kindred spirit. We’re about the same height. She’s like the white version of me and younger. But we went to the same high school even and junior high. I’m like, what?

Oh gosh.

Not by accident. Yeah.

Yeah, you definitely have a similar approach. And you’re my peeps. This is the way of managing and healing PCOS that I think really works. So I am so grateful to you for reaching out with your book, and being able to get you on the podcast to share all of your wisdom. So thank you, Mary.

Thank you. And I can’t wait to have you on our podcast, too My Fertology.

Yay. Well, I look forward to that.

Thank you.

Thank you everyone for listening in to this session of the PCOS Diva Podcast. I look forward to being with you again very soon. Bye bye.